Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma

The Great Seal of the Choctaw Nation

Re: Information about my grandfather Fred Elmer Vining

Tuwana Vining Tuwana Vining

posted on April 15, 2012

He is my paternal grandfather whom I never met. He had my dad Donald, and my two aunts Patricia and Laura Jean with my grandmother Georgia. He has since re-married and lived with them in OK. I know he was born in 1923 and passed away in 2007 in Collinsville, OK. As far as I know he is of Choctaw descent. I would appreciate as much information as possible.I apologize for not having much to go on. Thank you.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on April 15, 2012

this is his social security death index record:

Social Security Death Index about Fred Vining
Name: Fred Vining
Last Residence: 74021 Collinsville, Tulsa, Oklahoma, United States of America
Born: 19 May 1923
Died: 25 Jun 2007
State (Year) SSN issued: Washington (Before 1951)

you can get a copy of his social security application, which would list birthdate, birthplace, parents. use the SS-5 form.

there are no vining surname records on the dawes roll taken 1896-1906. maybe his mother had a choctaw lineage, but i don’t know his mother’s maiden name.

why can’t i find his 1930 census record? it appears he was not born in oklahoma?

do you have a copy of his obituary? his death certificate? his cemetery record? this is where i would start.

genealogists use names, dates, locations, children and spouses to match records. if you have a common surname, you need to give more information rather than less. if you post about women, it is helpful to include the maiden name and the married name and designate which one is the maiden name.

start with what you know, gather documentation, then you can go backward in time. so get your birth certificate, your parents’ birth certificates and marriage license and then you can start on your grandparents. if someone passed away after 1/1/1937, they probably have a social security application on file. if you ask a government agency for a birth certificate, and they were born before 1929, they might have submitted a delayed birth certificate. death certificates, cemetery information and obituaries are helpful. you can usually get a copy of an obituary, newspaper mentions such as birth of a child or marriage, through the interlibrary loan program – see your local public library for this. i usually start with the death and work toward the person’s birth. military records and pension records can be helpful. census records can tell you where they were at particular times, names of family members. the census records up to 1930 are available, although the 1890 census was largely destroyed. the 1940 census will be public information in 2012.

obituaries through the oklahoma choctaw tribe is through the history link for the tribe:

social security application for a deceased person:
form SS-5.

your public library probably has a subscription to heritage quest and is another useful database for native records and military records, but they are a subscription. however, many times their month’s subscription price is less than the price of a dawes packet, however check with accessgenealogy’s database to see if your relative’s dawes packet is exists or is available at fold3.
partial names are allowed.

bear in mind that many records are not online. always collect documents, as just the reference to a relative in an index informs you that a document is available.

death records:
death certificate: state vital records or if very old, state archives. ask for the person’s name at the time of death. you can look at death indices, such as the social security death index 1964-present for a date of death on or
obituary: see your local public library, interlibrary loan program. ask for the person’s name at the time of death. approximate date of death is helpful. if old, state historical society or state archives might have historical newspapers.
cemetery record: try or ask for the person’s name at the time of death. if you find a relative, you can click on the county or cemetery to see if others with the same surname are buried there.

marriage records:
state vital records office, county clerk or if old, state archives or state historical society.

birth records:
state vital records office, or if old, state archives or state historical society. if the birth was before 1940, ask for a birth certificate or a delayed birth certificate. many people had to get delayed birth certificates when social security came into effect because they had to show proof of age. this will be under the name used at the time of birth.

census records:
you will want to search for census records 1940 on down to the birth of your relative. the federal census was taken every 10 years, however the 1890 census was largely destroyed by fire. there are also some state census records and native census records and native rolls. and heritage quest are two databases that include many census records. many native census records kept by NARA ( are transcribed at accessgenealogy.

first of all, heritage and tribal enrollment are two different things. many times natives didn’t apply for enrollment because 1) they didn’t qualify, 2) they were philosophically opposed to enrollment, 3) they didn’t have documentation, or 4) they were mississippi choctaw and their ancestor had accepted land or benefits in lieu of tribal enrollment.

the dawes roll was taken 1896-1906, so you should trace your ancestors down to that time period. mostly, they had to be living in oklahoma by that time and agree to live there permanently.

history of the dawes roll
wikipedia entries are sometimes opinionated; entered by volunteers.

helpful information about tribal enrollment

2 ways to search:
this will let you enter partial names to get card#. click on the card# in the card column and you can see other names in that family.
other resources on the left and at the bottom of this webpage. native census records and databases are especially useful.
this will give you card# (family group) and enrollment #. they have some native marriage records too. other oklahoma records listed at left.
if your relative was enrolled by court action, their name might not be on this list.
if the name is common, you may find too many possible records.
you can order the dawes packet from the oklahoma historical society website.

if you find a relative listed on the dawes roll, fold3 may have filmed the record and could be available online.
other resources are NARA

the five civilized tribes book put out by the department of the interior has testimony.
and you can read it online

and these are the microfilms at fort worth TX archives.

there may be additional records about your relative:
contact NARA for these and other records listed on this webpage.

75.23.1 Records of the Dawes Commission
75.23.2 Records of the U.S. Indian Inspector for Indian Territory
75.23.3 General records of the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes
(Record Group 75)
oklahoma newspaper and archives search. some of these resources may be available through interlibrary loan/public library.

the tribe has an excellent information to help you. it is found under genealogy advocacy.
some obituaries:

NARA federal records repository. the fort worth, TX office has archives for oklahoma and texas tribes. atlanta/morrow office has archives for the southwest tribes. many offices have microfilmed records for several tribes. note that this web address has changed recently from

freedmen info:
You can ONLY apply for Choctaw Nation Membership, AFTER you have obtained a CDIB card proving your Choctaw Blood lineage to a direct ancestor who actually enrolled, BY BLOOD. Freedmen DID NOT enroll By Blood. When US Congress closed the Final Dawes Commission Rolls, there were no provisions granting Freedmen any benefits after the Dawes Commission closed. The tribe Constitution states BY BLOOD. however, the documents (application, census card and testimony) may help you find out more about your heritage.

mississippi choctaw and choctaw tribe explained here:

jena choctaw tribe in louisiana:

MOWA tribe
MOWA Band Of Choctaws Wilford Taylor 1080 Red Fox Road Mount Vernon, AL 36560 (251) 829-5500. E-Mail:

other choctaw tribes:

chickasaw historical society
Historic Preservation and Repatriation Office
Phone: (580) 272-5325
Fax: (580) 272-5327
2020 E. Arlington, Suite 4, Ada, OK 74820
send mail to: P.O. Box 1548, Ada, OK 74821

chickasaw tribe
Chickasaw Nation Headquarters
520 East Arlington, Ada, OK 74820
Phone (580) 436-2603
Mailing address: P.O. Box 1548, Ada, OK 74821

chickasaw genealogy archive center Tribal Library
Phone: (580) 310-6477
Fax: (580) 559-0773
1003 Chamber Loop, Ada, OK 74820
send mail to: P.O. Box 1548, Ada, OK 74821
oklahoma historical society
marriage records

other historical societies:
some oklahoma genealogical societies:

texas tribes

oklahoma tribes:

some links for the choctaw.
i looked at the land records and those need a lot of work. i have no information about whether or when they will improve some of these categories.

types of records available for native americans:
pages 366-369 in particular although the entire native american chapter is helpful.
The Genealogist’s Companion and Sourcebook:
Guide to the Resources You Need for Unpuzzling Your Past
Emily Anne Croom
you can ask for these particular pages from your local public library. if they don’t have the book, you can get the pages through the interlibrary loan program.
native american records are discussed in pages 352-386.

Tracing ancestors among the Five Civilized Tribes: Southeastern Indians …
By Rachal Mills Lennon
this book could be accessed through the interlibary loan program also.

always find the state archives. some records are online, some records are not. but many times you can find a record not found in other places. you want to see also about newspaper mentions for obituaries, births, marriages in particular.

check courts for probate, civil and criminal cases, marriage records.

if your ancestors lived on a reservation, they might not appear on a federal census because they were not taxed.
1860 census, indian territory.

this book is a good read about the dawes roll and how they implemented it.
The Dawes Commission and the allotment of the Five Civilized Tribes, 1893-1914
By Kent Carter
and you can read this book online. your relatives’ testimony might be in the book.
see the menu at left. you can download it.

you should look at the enrollment application, census card and testimony. this post will tell you how to do that. these documents will tell you more about your heritage, but it won’t help you if your goal is to be enrolled in the choctaw tribe of oklahoma. some people were classed as mississippi choctaw if the family had a native heritage but didn’t qualify for enrollment in the tribe.

there are 63 tribes in oklahoma but only the five major tribes are on the dawes roll. look at your family’s location around 1900-1930 time period (census will help you there) and see if there was a tribe located nearby. it is possible that your relatives were affiliated with another tribe.

if they were mississippi choctaw, there is probably a land grant in MS/AL to a head of household called choctaw scrip land. this was given in lieu of tribal enrollment 1830-1880 time period. has a database of the MS and AL choctaw scrip land records, called mississippi or alabama land records. there are other land records in those databases too,, so you have to look at the authority/source cited. NARA has those land record packages.

the mississippi choctaw was not removed from oklahoma. but they were largely rejected for tribal enrollment.

this website might help you in your search. some people are trying to transcribe applications.
i do not know what they are trying to transcribe, but this is the volunteer page

and this might be of interest to you:
Rights of Mississippi Choctaws in the Choctaw Nation
Index to the Final Rolls of the Citizens and Freedmen of the Five Civilized Tribes in Indian Territory
the dawes roll is composed of applications to the five major tribes in oklahoma.

good advice about native research:

if your relatives came from a different geographic location or belonged to a different tribe, try searching google for the state and tribes. you might find a contact for a state-recognized tribe or a federal recognized tribe.

this page can help you set up a targeted google search.

penny postcards. this is a website that features pictures that were on postcards. click on the state to see the postcards that they have.
if you have a penny postcard, you can click on submissions to add your penny postcard to the collection.

these searches will combine several possible search terms and give you the best matches.

i have collected many resources over the years. if you want to write to me, and request the choctaw resource list, i will be glad to send it to you.

i am just a volunteer that wants to empower people to learn how to do genealogy.

suzanne hamlet shatto

Tuwana Vining Tuwana Vining

posted on April 16, 2012

You have given me a lot of information thank you.There was a rumor that my grandfather’s last name was Willis, and he took the name of a family he stayed with when he was younger and used it. Not sure how valid that is since his social security number coincides with his name. I wish I knew the names of his parents, how can I find that out? Again, thank you so much for your help.

Tuwana Vining Tuwana Vining

posted on April 16, 2012

You have given me a lot of information thank you.There was a rumor that my grandfather’s last name was Willis, and he took the name of a family he stayed with when he was younger and used it. Not sure how valid that is since his social security number coincides with his name. I wish I knew the names of his parents, how can I find that out? Again, thank you so much for your help.

Tuwana Vining Tuwana Vining

posted on April 16, 2012

My maternal grandmother was born on July 10 in Camargo, OK. Her name was Elva Retta Wells. Her parents were George Washington Wells and Dorotha (Dortha) Irene Page Beck. Do you know where I can find information on them? Thank you again.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on April 17, 2012

you should get a copy of vining’s social security application. this will give you the name of parents, birthplace and birthdate. then you can get a copy of the birth record that he used to show proof of age.

you are describing an informal adoption process. this was common before 1940. sometimes it occurred when the mother remarried and the child took the new stepfather’s surname.

i don’t know when your maternal grandmother was born, since there is no year listed.

is this a related inquiry? there is no spouse name in your post.

read my original post and you may see how to find records.

you have given information but i don’t know about the documents you are relying upon. if you have another source of information, have you contacted them?

always, give name, spouse(s), children, location, dates. this helps people match records.

Tuwana Vining Tuwana Vining

posted on April 18, 2012

I’m sorry, I am trying to get information about my maternal grandmother and paternal grandfather. I am trying to figure out if I need to buy a death certificate for them both or just send a copy of the information from the SS site, including their SSN in order to gain a copy of their application for their social security card? I want to get as much information as possible, my family has little themselves. I’ve never done this before and you have given me many ideas where to start. Right now, i’m trying to figure out how I can get the necessary information, I have had very little contact with my father growing up and knew little about my grandmother before she passed away other than her birthdate. You have been very helpful and I apologize for the numerous questions, I just feel lost.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on April 18, 2012

you didn’t click on the link?
1) you need to prove they are deceased or get a consent from them that you can have a copy of their personal record. so you should get a copy of their death certificates. it is ok to use a genealogical copy, if this is less $. since you have to submit a death certificate, don’t choose to do it online.

2) you need to send in the death certificate and send a copy of their SS-5 application in to the social security department at the address.

3) call your local social security office if you have any questions.

Request for Deceased Individual’s Social Security Record SS-5.

A printable version of this SS-5 Application Form is also available for mail-in requests

Alternatively, you can send (1) the person’s name, (2) the person’s Social Security Number (if known), and (3) either evidence of death or a release-of-information statement signed by the person about whom the information is sought, to:

Social Security Administration
OEO FOIA Workgroup
300 N. Greene Street
P.O. Box 33022
Baltimore, Maryland 21290-3022

Mark both the envelope and its contents: "FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST " or “INFORMATION REQUEST.”

If you supply the Social Security Number, the fee is $27.00. If the SSN is not known, the fee is $29.00, and you must send the person’s full name, date and place of birth, and names of parents. If you have a Social Security Number from family records or a death certificate, but are unable to locate the individual in the SSDI, then I strongly suggest you include proof of death with your application, as it will likely be returned to you otherwise with that request.

The usual wait time for receiving a copy of a Social Security Application Form is 6-8 weeks, so be prepared to be patient! Online applications are generally a bit quicker – often with a turnaround time of 3-4 weeks, although this may vary based on demand.