Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma

The Great Seal of the Choctaw Nation

Winner Family originate PA, U.S./live upper canada/married Loveless/died MI

terri terri

posted on August 15, 2011

I live in Ontario, Canada. I have been researching and have a dilemma: my gg grandma’s brother has his name associated with a dawes roll application, but he did not register.It does show that both his father/mother were registered. His sister, my gggrandma (Rachael Winner) left PA and came/married Loveless in upper canada (ontario), and they ultimately settled in MI. She died in her 30’s of typhoid. I have some records/census etc. but nothing that clearly says choctaw/creek….only physical description of my great uncle that was in WW1 that (in my mind) is a testament to our background.

Any help would be appreciated.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on August 15, 2011

rachael winner m. ? loveless, ha a brother name unknown

there are no dates in your post. this is a big handicap in finding appropriate records.

the choctaw are a tribe from the southeast, MS/AL area, although some choctaw ranged as far north as KY.

many common names were on the dawes roll. i assume that the brother’s surname was winner?

tribe last first middle age sex blood card roll misc type
Choctaw Blake Emma 0 F 5947 P
Choctaw McLain Susan A 31 F IW 5947 NR MCALESTER BB
Choctaw Winner Hugh 0 M 5947 P
bb=by blood
iw=intermarried white, a general nontribal description

tribe last first middle age sex blood card roll misc type
Choctaw Blake Emma 0 F 3132 P
Choctaw McLain James 0 M 3132 P
Choctaw McLain Liza 0 F 3132 P
Choctaw McLain Wilmer Z 1 F 1/8 3132 NR DIXIE BB
Choctaw McLain George W 5 M 1/8 3132 NR DIXIE BB
Choctaw McLain Addie 7 F 1/8 3132 NR DIXIE BB
Choctaw McLain Susan A 25 F 1/8 3132 NR DIXIE BB
Choctaw McLain William A 33 M 1/8 3132 NR DIXIE BB
Choctaw Winner Hugh 0 M 3132 P

this appears to be the same person in both family groups.

you may know if this person is related to you. if so you might want to get a copy of the dawes application, census card and testimony.

i think it is far more likely that your family, if native, were of a northern tribe.

look where she was living and see if there are native bands located around there. this might give you a clue to your heritage.

natives usually only disclosed heritage when they applied for enrollment.

there are a few other places that might have records: state archives, state genealogical society, state historical society. there could be local history book mentions, local newspaper mentions and these would be available through your local public library/interlibrary loan program.

native languages were an oral tradition. they only became a written language in the middle of the 1800’s. the natives have no records. the war department was keeping records 1800-1900 and they are at NARA, national archives and records admiistration . transcriptions of many of these records are at and classified by state, by tribe. but you will find early records wholly inadequate, as early records are often transliterated native tongue.

as for her brother, without a name, it is difficult to figure out which one of 2,324 winner surnames are her brother.

i often start from the death and go backward in time. the obituary might be available through the interlibrary loan program/local public library. the cemetery record might be at or . maybe you should try to get a copy of her death certificate from the state where she passed away. this might be at the state vital records office or the county vital records office. if you are looking for an old record, you could check with the state archives.

then you can get her marriage record, her census records, her birth record.

if someone was alive 1/1/1937 and has since passed away, you can get a copy of their social security application which will show dates, locations, names. people had to show proof of age when they appliled, so they showed a birth record of some kind. often these were birth certificates or delayed birth certificates. state vital records office, county vital records office and state archives are possible locations for a birth certificate or delayed birth certificate.

genealogists use names, dates, locations, children and spouses to match records. if you have a common surname, you need to give more information rather than less. if you post about women, it is helpful to include the maiden name and the married name and designate which one is the maiden name.

start with what you know, gather documentation, then you can go backward in time. so get your birth certificate, your parents’ birth certificates and marriage license and then you can start on your grandparents. if someone passed away after 1/1/1937, they probably have a social security application on file. if you ask a government for a birth certificate, and they were born before 1929, they might have submitted a delayed birth certificate. death certificates, cemetery information and obituaries are helpful. you can usually get a copy of an obituary, newspaper mentions such as birth of a child or marriage, through the interlibrary loan program – see your local public library for this. i usually start with the death and work toward the person’s birth. military records and pension records can be helpful. census records can tell you where they were at particular times. the census records up to 1930 are available, although the 1890 census was largely destroyed. the 1940 census will be public information in 2012.

social security application for a deceased person:

first of all, heritage and tribal enrollment are two different things. many times natives didn’t apply for enrollment because 1) they didn’t qualify, 2) they were philosophically opposed to enrollment, 3) they didn’t have documentation, or 4) they were mississippi choctaw and their ancestor had accepted land or benefits in lieu of tribal enrollment.

the dawes roll was taken 1896-1906, so you should trace your ancestors down to that time period. mostly, they had to be living in oklahoma by that time and agree to live there permanently.

helpful information about tribal enrollment

2 ways to search:
this will let you enter partial names to get card#. click on the card# in the card column and you can see other names in that family.
other resources on the left and at the bottom of this webpage. native census records and databases are especially useful.
this will give you card# (family group) and enrollment #. they have some native marriage records too. other oklahoma records listed at left.
if the name is common, you may find too many possible records.

the tribe has an excellent information to help you. it is found under genealogy advocacy.

NARA federal records repository. the fort worth, TX office has archives for oklahoma and texas tribes. atlanta/morrow office has archives for the southwest tribes. many offices have microfilmed records for several tribes. note that this web address has changed recently from

freedmen info:
You can ONLY apply for Choctaw Nation Membership, AFTER you have obtained a CDIB card proving your Choctaw Blood lineage to a direct ancestor who actually enrolled, BY BLOOD. Freedmen DID NOT enroll By Blood. When US Congress closed the Final Dawes Commission Rolls, there were no provisions granting Freedmen any benefits after the Dawes Commission closed. The tribe Constitution states BY BLOOD. however, the documents (application, census card and testimony) may help you find out more about your heritage.

mississippi choctaw and choctaw tribe explained here:

jena choctaw tribe in louisiana:

MOWA tribe
MOWA Band Of Choctaws Wilford Taylor 1080 Red Fox Road Mount Vernon, AL 36560 (251) 829-5500. E-Mail:

other choctaw tribes:

chickasaw historical society 22
Historic Preservation and
Repatriation Office
Phone: (580) 272-5325
Fax: (580) 272-5327
2020 E. Arlington, Suite 4, Ada, OK 74820
send mail to: P.O. Box 1548, Ada, OK 74821

chickasaw tribe
Chickasaw Nation Headquarters
520 East Arlington, Ada, OK 74820
Phone (580) 436-2603
Mailing address: P.O. Box 1548, Ada, OK 74821

chickasaw genealogy archive center 23
Tribal Library
Phone: (580) 310-6477
Fax: (580) 559-0773
1003 Chamber Loop, Ada, OK 74820
send mail to: P.O. Box 1548, Ada, OK 74821
oklahoma historical society

texas tribes

oklahoma tribes:

some links for the choctaw.
i looked at the land records and those need a lot of work. i have no information about whether or when they will improve some of these categories.

types of records available for native americans:
pages 366-369 in particular although the entire native american chapter is helpful.
The Genealogist’s Companion and Sourcebook:
Guide to the Resources You Need for Unpuzzling Your Past
Emily Anne Croom
you can ask for these particular pages from your local public library. if they don’t have the book, you can get the pages through the interlibrary loan program.
native american records are discussed in pages 352-386.

Tracing ancestors among the Five Civilized Tribes: Southeastern Indians …
By Rachal Mills Lennon
this book could be accessed through the interlibary loan program also.

always find the state archives. some records are online, some records are not. but many times you can find a record not found in other places. you want to see also about newspaper mentions for obituaries, births, marriages in particular.

check courts for probate, civil and criminal cases, marriage records.

if your ancestors lived on a reservation, they might not appear on a federal census because they were not taxed.
1860 census, indian territory.

this book is a good read about the dawes roll and how they implemented it.
The Dawes Commission and the allotment of the Five Civilized Tribes, 1893-1914
By Kent Carter

good advice about native research:

if your relatives came from a different geographic location or belonged to a different tribe, try searching google for the state and tribes. you might find a contact for a state-recognized tribe or a federal recognized tribe.

i have collected many resources over the years. if you want to write to me, and request the choctaw resource list, i will be glad to send it to you.

i am just a volunteer that wants to empower people to learn how to do genealogy.

suzanne hamlet shatto

terri terri

posted on August 15, 2011

Thanks so much Suzanne, at the time of writing the above I didn’t have my research in front of me. However, I do now.

My gg grandfather William W. Loveless b. upper canada 22/04/1837 married upper Canada 10/08/1859 to Rachael Ann Winner b. 10/09/1837 PA. They had 10 children – b. upper canada, but emigrated to MI 1879/80 on the us census. Rachael Ann Winner d. 07/08/1881 MI. I have had a hard time researching Winner- PA. I have cemetery listings MI, census records upper Canada and MI, I thought that Hugh Winner is her brother, but don’t know for sure. I do have copies of the Dawes Roll card # 3132 and 5947.

Our family all have native genes, which is why I started researching the family history. My grandma told me she grew up with a picture on the wall of a native woman, which was Rachael, as she died so young. My grandma and family grew up around Leamington/Windsor. I have tapped into the Essex library for births/marriages/deaths/census but there is nothing in any of it so far to indicate. Grandma’s brother’s WW1 records under description: Black hair, black eyes, dark skin.
His name was Robert Delos Simpson Loveless, he left the family as a young man, after he returned from WW1 and ended up settling in Yakima, WA. This is where I traced him to as the family didn’t know where he disappeared to.

Any other help /information would be wonderful.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on August 15, 2011

canadian tribal enrollment has been unavailable for those females that married caucasians. so she would probably not have enrolled in a canadian tribe.

i think the hugh winner listed on the dawes roll is not very likely to be from your family, unless you recognize the names of people on those census cards. do you know where your relative hugh winner was living in 1900?

you have not given the names of their children. this is a handicap in looking for records. you say you have cemetery listings, census records, but you don’t give the sources.

this might be your relative:
1880 United States Federal Census about Rachel Loveless
Name: Rachel Loveless
Home in 1880: Haring, Wexford, Michigan
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Birthplace: Pennsylvania
Relation to Head of Household: Wife
Spouse’s Name: William Loveless
Father’s birthplace: Pennsylvania
Mother’s birthplace: Pennsylvania
Neighbors: View others on page
Occupation: Keeping House
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Gender: Female
Cannot read/write:


Deaf and dumb:

Otherwise disabled:

Idiotic or insane:

View image
Household Members:
Name Age
William Loveless 43
Rachel Loveless 42
Willard W. Loveless 15
Wilton W. Loveless 13
Sarah E. Loveless 12
Wesley W. Loveless 10
William W. Loveless 7
Dasie V. Loveless 5
Violet Loveless 5
Evangeline Loveless 2
Source Citation: Year: 1880; Census Place: Haring, Wexford, Michigan; Roll: 609; Family History Film: 1254609; Page: 506B; Enumeration District: 250; Image: 0744.

because someone else associates this record with rachael:
1850 United States Federal Census about Rachel Lovelass
Name: Rachel Lovelass
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Birth Place: Pennsylvania
Gender: Female
Home in 1850 (City,County,State): Sheshequin, Bradford, Pennsylvania
Family Number: 245
Household Members:
Name Age
Alanson Lovelass 51
Betsy Lovelass 51
Matilda Lovelass 14
Rachel Lovelass 12
Source Citation: Year: 1850; Census Place: Sheshequin, Bradford, Pennsylvania; Roll: M432_757; Page: 294A; Image: 340.

do you know where this location is? maybe there were tribes around this area?

alanson was b. CT, betsy b. PA

especially check at the pennsylvania state archives. they have many resources. also check with the pennsylvania historical society and pennsylvania genealogical society.

another rachael winner, but still no hugh:
1860 United States Federal Census about Rachael Winner
Name: Rachael Winner
Age in 1860: 16
Birth Year: abt 1844
Birthplace: Pennsylvania
Home in 1860: Loyalsock, Lycoming, Pennsylvania
Gender: Female
Post Office: Williamsport
Value of real estate: View image
Household Members:
Name Age
Jesse Winner 49
Ascanus Winner 44
John D Winner 22
James Winner 10
Charlotte Winner 18
Rachael Winner 16
Rebecca A Winner 13
Elijah Winner 10
Rosanah Winner 8
Silvester Winner 2
Source Citation: Year: 1860; Census Place: Loyalsock, Lycoming, Pennsylvania; Roll: M653_1136; Page: 413; Image: 422; Family History Library Film: 805136.

i also think that you would be ill-advised to assume native blood based on black eyes, dark skin. many europeans had dark features also. as an example, italians and gypsies also had dark features.

on, some of the family trees say that her surname was wirmer? or a variation of that.

there is a picture of william w. loveless who married rachel/rachael wirmer.

Rachel Ann Wirmir
Birth 10 Sept 1837 in PA, USA
Death 07 Aug 1881 in Haring Twp, Wexford Co, MI

her father might have been jacob. unknown mother.

you might try to get a copy of rachael’s obituary. see your local public library/interlibrary loan program, the nearest latter day saints family history center, michigan state archives, michigan state genealogical society or michigan state historical society.