Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma

The Great Seal of the Choctaw Nation

Trying to find more information about my great great grandmother who was Choctaw Indian. I would love to be able to find a recording of her birth. I have more details of names and birthdays but here are some of the basics. Does anyone know how I could get

Kimberly Moore Kimberly Moore

posted on March 19, 2011

The oldest records I have is Mary Williams (my great great grandmother) who was 100% Choctaw. I don’t know her birthday. She died 1902 (of dropsy) and was believed to have had a farm near Jackson, Mississippi. She was married to William Page who went out to get food (during the Civil War) and never returned. Their Children were: Carr Page (married Amanda Dean) William Page Seborn Page Joseph Kentchin Page (married Permilia Ann Dean) Molly Page (married to Hardee) Ann Page (married James Dean)

(Mary Williams remarried a man by the name of Little and had three more children: Ike Little, Liege Little, Lou Little)

My Great Grandparents were, Joseph Kentchin Page and Permilia Ann Dean eloped and married in Texas:

Joseph Kentchin Page- born 3/9/1852 in Jackson Mississippi died 7/22/1928 in Ft. Smith Arkansas (Buried Oak Grove Cemetery).

Permilia Ann Malsie Mosine Dean- born 5/14/1858 in Jackson Mississippi, died 2/23/1938 in Ft. Smith Arkansas (Buried Oak Grove Cemetery)

They Had 11 children:
Henry Page (Died as infant)
Maggie Page (Died as infant)
Twin Boys (Died as infants, not named)
Twin Boys (Died as infants, not named)
Mary Lillie Page
Alice Elba Page
Jodie Etta Page
Eddie Clay Page
Vadie Mae Page

My Grandmother was Vadie Mae Page- Born 8/25/1889 in Indian Territory (now Kingston Oklahoma). She Married Orta Leo Moore. Orta Leo Moore was born 10/20/1889 and died 8/22/1972 in Califfornia.
They had 11 children:

Nona Myrle Moore 11/13/1913
Edrie Viola Moore 9/18/1915
Clessie Vontilla Moore 11/1/1918
Blanche Pauline Moore 7/19/1920
Orta Nolan Moore 5/1/1923
Glendon Edgar Moore 2/5/1926
Frankie Luther Moore 10/12/1928
Elizabeth La Vonnie Moore 4/16/1930
Clifford Kentchin Moore 8/18/1932
Orval Lee Moore born 9/27/1934
Ira Julian Moore born 10/22/1938

Orval Lee Moore was my father.

What I am trying to do is find out more info about the ancestors of my Great Great Grandmother Mary Williams. Who her parents were… I have a great start, but any advice to research further would be great.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on March 20, 2011

good information. genealogists use spouse name(s), location, children, dates to match records.
i don’t know what documents you have for your family. so i guess i start with the generation closest to this time and work backwards.

um, location information IS important.

1930 United States Federal Census
about Orta N Moore
Name: Orta N Moore
Home in 1930: Gregory, Snohomish, Washington
View Map
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1920
Relation to Head of House: Son
Father’s Name: Orta L Moore
Mother’s Name: Vadie M Moore
Race: White


Military Service:

Rent/home value:

Age at first marriage:

Parents’ birthplace:

View image
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Orta L Moore 40
Vadie M Moore 36
Nona M Moore 16
Edrie V Moore 14
Clessie V Moore 11
Pauline B Moore 9
Orta N Moore 10
Glendon E Moore 4
Frank L Moore 1 6/12
Source Citation: Year: 1930; Census Place: Gregory, Snohomish, Washington; Roll: 2519; Page: 2B; Enumeration District: 75; Image: 1004.0.
orta l. moore, head, rents a farm for $15/month, doesn’t have a radio, white male, age 40, married first at age 22, reads and writes, b. SD, father b. IA, mother b. IL, farmer
vadie m., wife, white female, age 35, married first at age 17, reads and writes, b. OK, parents b. MS
nona m., daughter, white female, age 16, single, reads and writes, b. AR, father b. SD, mother b. OK
edrie v., daugher, white female, age 14, single, reads and writes, attends school, b. AR, fathyer b. SD, mother b. OK
clessie v., daughter, white female, age 11, single, reads and writes, attends school, b. KS, father b. SD, mother b. OK
pauline b., daughter, white female, age 9, single, attends school, b. KS, father b. SD, mother b. OK
orta n., son, white male, age 6, single, attends school, b. KS, father b. SD, mother b. OK
glendon e., son, white male, age 4, single, b. WA, father b. SD, mother b. OK
frank l., son, white male, age 1 year and 6 months, single, b. WA, father b. SD, mother b. OK

Social Security Death Index
about Orta Moore
Name: Orta Moore
SSN: 570-10-5713
Last Residence: 95948 Gridley, Butte, California, United States of America
Born: 20 Oct 1889
Died: Aug 1972
State (Year) SSN issued: California (Before 1951)

World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918
about Orta Leo Moore
Name: Orta Leo Moore
County: Butler
State: Kansas
Birth Date: 20 Oct 1889
Race: Caucasian (White)
FHL Roll Number: 1643426
DraftBoard: 0
born in deadwood, SD.

California Death Index, 1940-1997
about Orta L Moore
Name: Orta L Moore
Social Security #: 570105713
Sex: Male
Birth Date: 20 Oct 1889
Birthplace: South Dakota
Death Date: 22 Aug 1972
Death Place: Butte

1920 United States Federal Census
about Artie Moore
Name: Artie Moore
[Orta Moore]
Home in 1920: Walnut, Butler, Kansas
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Birthplace: South Dakota
Relation to Head of House: Head
Spouse’s Name: Vadie Moore
Father’s Birth Place: Iowa
Mother’s Birth Place: Illinois
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Sex: Male
Home owned: Rent
Able to read: Yes
Able to Write: Yes
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Artie Moore 30
Vadie Moore 25
Nona Moore 6
Edrie Moore 4 3/12
Clessie Moore 1 2/12
Sid Brown 30
Source Citation: Year: 1920;Census Place: Walnut, Butler, Kansas; Roll: T625_524; Page: 12B; Enumeration District: 41; Image: 570.

1920 United States Federal Census
about Vadie Moore
Name: Vadie Moore
Home in 1920: Walnut, Butler, Kansas
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1895
Birthplace: Oklahoma
Relation to Head of House: Wife
Spouse’s Name: Artie Moore
Father’s Birth Place: Oklahoma
Mother’s Birth Place: Mississippi

sid brown is a boarder.

California Death Index, 1940-1997
about Vadie May Moore
Name: Vadie May Moore
[Vadie May Page]
Social Security #: 566091480
Sex: Female
Birth Date: 25 Aug 1894
Birthplace: Oklahoma
Death Date: 10 Sep 1988
Death Place: Butte
Mother’s Maiden Name: Dean
Father’s Surname: Page

1900 United States Federal Census
about Vadie M Page
Name: Vadie M Page
Home in 1900: Sherman Ward 5, Grayson, Texas
[Grayson, Texas]
Age: 4
Birth Date: Aug 1895
Birthplace: Indian Territory
Race: White
Gender: Female
Relationship to head-of-house: Daughter
Father’s Name: Joseph K Page
Father’s Birthplace: Mississippi
Mother’s Name: Parmelia A Page
Mother’s Birthplace: Mississippi
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: View on Image
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph K Page 44
Parmelia A Page 36
Alice E Page 12
Jodie E Page 8
Eddie C Page 6
Vadie M Page 4
Source Citation: Year: 1900; Census Place: Sherman Ward 5, Grayson, Texas; Roll: T623_1639; Page: 27A; Enumeration District: 91.

i don’t see the family on the dawes roll, so they did not apply for enrollment. but i notice that many of the choctaw page surnames were mississippi choctaw and not enrolled.

joseph k. page, head, white male, b. march 1856, age 44, married 22 years, b. MS, parents b. unknown, day laborer, reads and writes, rents a house
parmelia a., wife, white female, b. may 1864, age 36, married 22 years, had 12 children but only 5 survive, b. MS, father b. KY, mother b. LA
alice e., daughter, white female, b. feb. 1888, age 12, single, b. TX, parents b. MS
jodie e., daughter, white female, b. june 1891, age 8, single, b. TX, parents b. MS
eddie c., son, white male, b. june, 1893, age 6, single, b. TX, parents b. MS
vadie m., daughter, white female, b. aug. 1895, age 4, single b. indian (indian territory?), parents b. MS

the trail of tears occurred in the late 1830’s from the southeastern reservations to oklahoma/indian territory. it didn’t go through texas. it appears to me that, if these people were native, they were mississippi choctaw. you may prove affiliation if you can find a land grant in MS saying choctaw scrip.

Arkansas Death Index, 1914-1950
about Permelur Ann Page
Name: Permelur Ann Page
Death Day: 23
Death:Month: Feb
Death Year: 1938
County: Sebastian
Roll Number: 19341940
Page Number: 2639

1920 United States Federal Census
about Pamela Roger
Name: Pamela Roger
[Permelia Page]
[Permel Roger]
Home in 1920: Fort Smith Ward 3, Sebastian, Arkansas
Age: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Birthplace: Mississippi
Relation to Head of House: Mother-in-Law
Father’s Birth Place: Alabama
Mother’s Birth Place: United States of America
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Sex: Female
Able to read: Yes
Able to Write: Yes
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
John R Hesson 34
Alice Hesson 31
Lillie M Hesson 13
Eugene Hesson 7
Pamela Roger 60
Source Citation: Year: 1920;Census Place: Fort Smith Ward 3, Sebastian, Arkansas; Roll: T625_82; Page: 6B; Enumeration District: 158; Image: 469.

Texas Marriage Collection, 1814-1909 and 1966-2002
about Permelia Deen
Name: Permelia Deen
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 22 Nov 1877

Spouse: J. K. Page

Marriage City: Cass
Marriage State: Texas

Source: Texas Marriages, 1851-1900

1870 United States Federal Census
about Permelia Dean
Name: Permelia Dean
Birth Year: abt 1862
Age in 1870: 8
Birthplace: Mississippi
Home in 1870: Precinct 3, Davis, Texas
Race: White
Gender: Female
Value of real estate: View image
Household Members:
Name Age
Mark A Dean 62
Martha Dean 19
James W Dean 17
Mark A Dean 15
Charlie Dean 12
Purkersy Dean 10
Permelia Dean 8
Source Citation: Year: 1870; Census Place: Precinct 3, Davis, Texas; Roll: M593_1582; Page: 55B; Image: 114; Family History Library Film: 553081.

1880 United States Federal Census
about J. R. Page
Name: J. R. Page
Home in 1880: Bowie, Texas
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Birthplace: Mississippi
Relation to Head of Household: Self (Head)
Spouse’s Name: Jane A. Page
Father’s birthplace: Mississippi
Mother’s birthplace: Mississippi
Neighbors: View others on page
Occupation: Farmer
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Gender: Male
Cannot read/write:


Deaf and dumb:

Otherwise disabled:

Idiotic or insane:

View image
Household Members:
Name Age
J. R. Page 27
Jane A. Page 23
M. E. Page 2
Source Citation: Year: 1880; Census Place: , Bowie, Texas; Roll: 1292; Family History Film: 1255292; Page: 102C; Enumeration District: 4; .

all this is very nice up to this point. there have been a few surprises. but why can’t i find mary page/little and children in the 1870 census. why can’t i find joseph? why can’t i find carr page? is seborn spelled differently in records?

this is very strange. maybe i am looking in the wrong location? names like carr page are not in the census. this is the problem with not using dates and locations. i don’t know where i expect to find records at particular times. we use county locations, rather than city names because counties have records and cities names are too restrictive for location.

all of this amounts to the probable reason you are having trouble with records. there are no sources in your post. when it gets to joseph’s generation, the dates and locations stop helping to locate the family.

genealogists use names, dates, locations, children and spouses to match records. if you have a common surname,

you need to give more information rather than less. if you post about women, it is helpful to include the maiden

name and the married name and designate which one is the maiden name.

start with what you know, gather documentation, then you can go backward in time. so get your birth certificate,

your parents’ birth certificates and marriage license and then you can start on your grandparents. if someone

passed away after 1/1/1937, they probably have a social security application on file. if you ask a government

for a birth certificate, and they were born before 1929, they might have sumitted a delayed birth certificate.

death certificates, cemetery information and obituaries are helpful. you can usually get a copy of an obituary,

newspaper mentions such as birth of a child or marriage, through the interlibrary loan program – see your local

public library for this. i usually start with the death and work toward the person’s birth. military records

and pension records can be helpful. census records can tell you where they were at particular times. the census

records up to 1930 are available, although the 1890 census was largely destroyed. the 1940 census will be public

information in 2012.

first of all, heritage and tribal enrollment are two different things. many times natives didn’t apply for

enrollment because 1) they didn’t qualify, 2) they were philosophically opposed to enrollment, 3) they didn’t

have documentation, or 4) they were mississippi choctaw and their ancestor had accepted land or benefits in lieu

of tribal enrollment.

the dawes roll was taken 1896-1906, so you should trace your ancestors down to that time period. mostly, they

had to be living in oklahoma by that time and agree to live there permanently.

2 ways to search:
this will let you enter partial names to get card#. click on the card# in the card column and you can see other

names in that family.
other resources on the left and at the bottom of this webpage. native census records and databases are

especially useful.
this will give you card# (family group) and enrollment #. they have some native marriage records too. other

oklahoma records listed at left.
if the name is common, you may find too many possible records.

the tribe has an excellent information to help you. it is found under genealogy advocacy.

NARA federal records repository. the fort worth, TX office has archives for oklahoma

and texas tribes. atlanta/morrow office has archives for the southwest tribes. many offices have microfilmed

records for several tribes. note that this web address has changed recently from

mississippi choctaw and choctaw tribe explained here:

jena choctaw tribe in louisiana:

MOWA tribe
MOWA Band Of Choctaws Wilford Taylor 1080 Red Fox Road Mount Vernon, AL 36560 (251) 829-5500. E-Mail:

other choctaw tribes:

chickasaw historical society 22
Historic Preservation and
Repatriation Office
Phone: (580) 272-5325
Fax: (580) 272-5327
2020 E. Arlington, Suite 4, Ada, OK 74820
send mail to: P.O. Box 1548, Ada, OK 74821

chickasaw tribe
Chickasaw Nation Headquarters
520 East Arlington, Ada, OK 74820
Phone (580) 436-2603
Mailing address: P.O. Box 1548, Ada, OK 74821

chickasaw genealogy archive center 23
Tribal Library
Phone: (580) 310-6477
Fax: (580) 559-0773
1003 Chamber Loop, Ada, OK 74820
send mail to: P.O. Box 1548, Ada, OK 74821
oklahoma historical society

texas tribes

oklahoma tribes:

some links for the choctaw.
i looked at the land records and those need a lot of work. i have no information about whether or when they will

improve some of these categories.

types of records available for native americans:
pages 366-369 in particular although the entire native american chapter is helpful.
The Genealogist’s Companion and Sourcebook:
Guide to the Resources You Need for Unpuzzling Your Past
Emily Anne Croom
you can ask for these particular pages from your local public library. if they don’t have the book, you can get

the pages through the interlibrary loan program.
native american records are discussed in pages 352-386.

Tracing ancestors among the Five Civilized Tribes: Southeastern Indians …
By Rachal Mills Lennon
this book could be accessed through the interlibary loan program also.

always find the state archives. some records are online, some records are not. but many times you can find a

record not found in other places. you want to see also about newspaper mentions for obituaries, births,

marriages in particular.

check courts for probate, civil and criminal cases, marriage records.

if your ancestors lived on a reservation, they might not appear on a federal census because they were not taxed.
1860 census, indian territory.

this book is a good read about the dawes roll and how they implemented it.
The Dawes Commission and the allotment of the Five Civilized Tribes, 1893-1914
By Kent Carter

good advice about native research:

if your relatives came from a different geographic location or belonged to a different tribe, try searching

google for the state and tribes. you might find a contact for a state-recognized tribe or a federal recognized


i have collected many resources over the years. if you want to write to me, and request the choctaw resource list, i will be glad to send it to you.

i am just a volunteer that wants to empower people to learn how to do genealogy.

suzanne hamlet shatto

Kimberly Moore Kimberly Moore

posted on March 22, 2011

Suzanne, thank you so much for posting all of that information and references to investigate further. It’s all so overwhelming. I wrote to your email earlier today because I was having trouble logging into this site on my droid.

I noticed that Mary Williams had 3 husbands. William Page, who was born in Scotland, Little (which you say there is no record on the census). I did not include the name of her 3rd husband who she married after Mr. Little passed away. I do not know when the marriage took place but it says that the marriage ended in divorce. The name on the paper I have is “Hunt”.

Also, weird that there is nothing about her son Carr and daughter-in-law, Amandy Dean.

Do you think I could check obituaries and marriages in Jackson Mississippi for that time period?

I also found the names of Permelia’s parents. The fathers name was Mark Dean. I only have the maiden name of her mother “ORR”

3 of their children married 3 of Mary’s children. It kills me that there are no cities, or dates listed.

Permelia Ann Malsie Mosine Dean (Married Joe Page)
Mandy Dean (married Carr Page)
Felix Dean
Jake Dean
Dock Dean (Dock was a nickname)
James Dean (married Anne Page)

I have a copy of a death certificate for Joseph Page

It shows that his mothers maiden name was Mary Williams but where it says Mary’s birth place “not known” (by Permelia Page, who was listed as the informant on the death certificate). It shows her current address at that time to be 1213 South 9th street in Fort Smith, Sebastian County, Arkansas. At the time of Josephs death, it was written that she lived in Arkansas for 16 years, which puts her in Arkansas from1907-til her death in 1938. On her death certificate, her daughter Alice Hesson is listed as the informant. It looks like Pernelia lived with her daughter because they use the same address: 1309 Towson Ave in Fort Smith for both of them.

It’s so overwhelming. These families are so large. I wish I could find a marriage license for Joseph and Pernelia but there isn’t anything with the city or county on anything. They eloped, so I wonder if it would be the closest Texas county from Jackson Mississippi??

Thank you for taking the time to give me the info you could. A lot of it validates The little pieces of the puzzle that I have.

I’ll try to do some more research with some of the info you gave me.
Thank you!

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on March 23, 2011

if you don’t have much information on the parent, you should get more documentation on the children. childrens’ records point to the parents and fix the family to a date and location.

i don’t think you have enough documentation on the children, since you don’t have dates and locations. you need to contact anyone who posted about your family, get census, vital records, obituaries, marriage records. do not ignore state archives, state historical or genealogy societies, county court/land records, tax records.

sometimes people post wild guesses on the internet, and sometimes people have a lesser standard of proof. you have to collect your own documents. you will find many errors that are often repeated over the internet.

as far as record collection, i often start with the death and work backwards. death certificate, obituary, cemetery record. you can get the obituary through interlibrary loan – see your local public library for that. if you get stuck on someone who passed away after 1/1/1937, you can ask for their social security application. many times people filed a delayed birth certificate to show proof of age when they applied for social security. when you ask for a birth certificate from a state, also mention that a delayed birth certificate could have been filed. this is because people will look in one place for a particular year and not look in a later time period, after the birth.

note that permilia passed away AFTER social security was in effect, so her social security application probably would have listed when and where she married.

the obituaries would be helpful to you.

Laura Allen Duncan Laura Allen Duncan

posted on May 26, 2013

Dear Kim,

I believe I have some valuable information for you regarding Joe Page and his father, William Page, who I believe is my great, great grandfather. I am very excited to think that if what I believe is true, this will solve a great mystery that has existed in my family for the past three generations! Please contact me via email or phone at the contact info listed below.


Laura Allen Duncan

Laura Allen Duncan Laura Allen Duncan

posted on May 29, 2013

P.S. Kim,

Do you know Mary Williams’ native Choctaw name? Was it “Yellow Bird?”

Laura Duncan