Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma

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John Rose 1761-1843 & Betsy Bowen Rose 1763-1835

Deborah Ebeyer Deborah Ebeyer

posted on November 10, 2010

Hi my great, great, great, great, great grandparents were both Choctaw Indians according to a genealogy search I just found. I had no idea and I’m new to genealogy as well. He was born in Virginia and she was born in Pennsylvania and they moved to Kentucky where they later died and are buried on the John Rose Farm in Wolfe Kentucky. They are the last relatives I can find. So If anyone has any information I would really appreciate it. I’m very excited about this new discovery as I had no idea where I came from.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on November 10, 2010

no children in your post. often this is helpful because john rose is a common name. betsy might be a nickname or a legal name.

no documents in your post, and no information about how you know that they were choctaw natives. it would be very unusual for a choctaw native to be born up in pennsylvania, for instance, as the choctaw tribe mostly lived in the southeastern area. the choctaw language was an oral tradition until about the middle of the 1800’s. there are some records kept by the war department 1800-1880’s. some of the native names are transliterated and variously spelled.

this might be helpful to you, from the rose family assocation
http://www.rosefamilyassociation.com/
John Rose (w Rebeckah Bowen) Wolfe Co., KY; Harrison Co., VA;
-—We offer a direct line report – send your descent and we will prepare a special report as far as
-— we can take it in your line $20**
.
i don’t know about the quality of the report but they might list sources of information/documents.

Ahnentafel, Generation No. 4

8. John David ROSE was born 1761, and died 1843 in Wolfe County, Kentucky. He was buried in John Rose Cemetery, Stillwater, Wolfe County, Kentucky. He was the son of 16. Ezekiel ROSE and 17. Mary HIGGINS.

9. Rebekah BOWEN was born 1763 in Claylick, Montgomery Township, Franklin County, Pennsylvania, and died 1835 in Wolfe County, Kentucky. She was buried in John Rose Cemetery, Stillwater, Wolfe County, Kentucky. She was the daughter of 18. David BOWEN and 19. Hannah DAVIS.

this is from a family tree on ancestry.com that might be accessible to you.
http://awt.ancestrylibrary.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=AHN&db=gayfamilyfile&id=I015309&ti=5542
from that tree:

  1. ID: I013736
  2. Name: John David ROSE
  3. Sex: M
  4. Birth: 1761
  5. Death: 1843 in Wolfe County, Kentucky
  6. Burial: John Rose Cemetery, Stillwater, Wolfe County, Kentucky
  7. Note: Some say he was born in Harrison County, Virginia, which is now West Virgi nia. Others say he was born in Surry County, Virginia, now North Carolina.

there is a rose family association DNA project too:
http://www.rosefamilyassociation.com/Rose%20Family%20DNA%20Project.html
GROUP K
THE LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK GROUP
this is the group that john rose appears in.

some of the results for john rose and rebekah bowen.
http://dgmweb.net/FGS/Ros/RoseJohnDavid-RebeccaBowen.html

you might try local history books, journals, newspapers for information. see your local library for these; they can access books through the interlibrary loan program. check state archives for recordds.

genealogists use names, dates, locations, children and spouses to match records. if you have a common surname, you need to give more information rather than less. if you post about women, it is helpful to include the maiden name and the married name and designate which one is the maiden name.

first of all, heritage and tribal enrollment are two different things. many times natives didn’t apply for enrollment because 1) they didn’t qualify, 2) they were philosophically opposed to enrollment, 3) they didn’t have documentation, or 4) they were mississippi choctaw and their ancestor had accepted land or benefits in lieu of tribal enrollment.

the dawes roll was taken 1896-1906, so you should trace your ancestors down to that time period. mostly, they had to be living in oklahoma by that time and agree to live there permanently.

2 ways to search:
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/finalroll.php
this will let you enter partial names to get card#. click on the card# in the card column and you can see other names in that family.
other resources on the left and at the bottom of this webpage. native census records and databases are especially useful.

http://www.okhistory.org/research/dawes/index.php
this will give you card# (family group) and enrollment #. they have some native marriage records too. other oklahoma records listed at left.
if the name is common, you may find too many possible records.

the tribe has an excellent information to help you. it is found under genealogy advocacy.
http://choctawnation.com/services/departments/community-services/

mississippi choctaw and choctaw tribe explained here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw_Trail_of_Tears

http://www.choctaw.org/

jena choctaw tribe in louisiana:
http://www.jenachoctaw.org/

MOWA tribe
http://encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Article.jsp?id=h-1368
http://www.uab.edu/uabmagazine/2009/july/losttribe
http://www.native-american-online.org/MOWA-Choctaw.htm
MOWA Band Of Choctaws Wilford Taylor 1080 Red Fox Road Mount Vernon, AL 36560 (251) 829-5500. E-Mail: chieftaylor@mowachoctaw.com

texas tribes
http://www.native-languages.org/texas.htm
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/texas/index.htm
http://www.texasindians.com/
http://www.texasindians.com/
http://www.lsjunction.com/places/indians.htm

oklahoma tribes:
http://500nations.com/Oklahoma_Tribes.asp
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/oklahoma/index.htm
http://www.cowboy.net/native/tribes.html

some links for the choctaw.
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/choctaw/index.htm
i looked at the land records and those need a lot of work. i have no information about whether or when they will improve some of these categories.

types of records available for native americans:
pages 366-369 in particular although the entire native american chapter is helpful.
The Genealogist’s Companion and Sourcebook:
Guide to the Resources You Need for Unpuzzling Your Past
Emily Anne Croom
you can ask for these particular pages from your local public library. if they don’t have the book, you can get the pages through the interlibrary loan program.
native american records are discussed in pages 352-386.

Tracing ancestors among the Five Civilized Tribes: Southeastern Indians …
By Rachal Mills Lennon
this book could be accessed through the interlibary loan program also.

always find the state archives. some records are online, some records are not. but many times you can find a record not found in other places. you want to see also about newspaper mentions for obituaries, births, marriages in particular.

check courts for probate, civil and criminal cases, marriage records.

if your ancestors lived on a reservation, they might not appear on a federal census because they were not taxed.
http://www.okgenweb.org/~okgarvin/kinard/1860index.htm
1860 census, indian territory.

this book is a good read about the dawes roll and how they implemented it.
The Dawes Commission and the allotment of the Five Civilized Tribes, 1893-1914
By Kent Carter

good advice about native research:
http://jenniferhsrn2.homestead.com/research2.html

if your relatives came from a different geographic location or belonged to a different tribe, try searching google for the state and tribes. you might find a contact for a state-recognized tribe or a federal recognized tribe.

i have collected many resources over the years. if you want to write to me, shamlet76@gmail.com and request the choctaw resource list, i will be glad to send it to you.

i am just a volunteer that wants to empower people to learn how to do genealogy.

suzanne hamlet shatto

Just a Rose Just a Rose

posted on June 25, 2011

Hi Deborah!

I’m a double descendant of John Rose and Rebecka Bowen – both of my Rose grandparents are his descendants. I’m curious about the Choctaw information you have.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on June 25, 2011

i have no choctaw information. i have a resource list but you would have to write me so that i have an email address where i could send it.

the war department kept records 1800-about 1880 and those are at NARA/national archives and records administration. the native language is an oral tradition, so they have no records. state archives sometimes have records. other possible sources are local history books, local historical newspapers, county courthouse information such as wills and land records. sometimes there is a federal grant called choctaw scrip land records, but these were usually in MS and AL. try the genealogical and historical societies, the state archives.

see what the rose association has. they have done some good reconstruction work with that surname.

the key to tribes in that time period would be geographic.

Shane Michael Cook Shane Michael Cook

posted on November 18, 2011

I appreciate the person who manages this thread for allowing me to post this. I know many Rose family members who would be honored to be able to prove a relation to the Choctaw people. This thread comes up regularly when searching “Rose” and “Native American.” I have some “clues” that I have been using in my research. I offer them in no way as any proof. They are just places to start for those who have the same questions I have.

The Rose DNA project shows our line of Roses (John/Rebekah) to be different from the other Roses of Irish/English descent. The current abilities of DNA testing are debatable but it can provide clues. This line of Roses shows middle eastern DNA. This adds support to my grandmothers claim that she was Native American and Jewish. Her name was Arizona Rose-Click.

Her father was Garrett Hobert Rose (1898-1975). Garrett claimed to be Native American and very much lived a life consistent with many Native Americans. He often lived alone along the Ohio River. He would canoe into Kentucky where he sold the mink furs he trapped and the ginseng and yellow root that he collected. He never learned to drive claiming it was “the white mans way.” There is a family letter with Garrett’s real name, a Native name, in it. I hope to soon be posting this letter on line for all to see. The Roses of Eastern Kentucky are all related.

The Roses were a very, very large family. They can be found near lake Huron at a time when there were only Natives and a handful of French Canadian trapper. The Rose family has connections to the Ogden family. Peter Skene Ogden had three wives in his lifetime. Two of them were Native Americans—-believed to be Chickasaw.

The Roses of this line show a movement from NY to PA to VA to KY to TX and OK. They seem to have always been in places where Europeans were few in numbers and they moved as soon as the population started growing.

The Roses have connections to Mary Wentworth and “Donnaha.” I do wish we could learn “Donnaha’s” real name. However, many of their descendants are well documented Natives. I do suggest reading about them. It is important to know about them.

Again, this isn’t offered as proof of anything. It is just a place to start. The true origins of this line of Roses has just begin to show itself—-and it will take time. Tribal participation will also help. The Native community has far more information than they know what to do with. We just have to ask the right questions.

attached:

Shane Michael Cook Shane Michael Cook

posted on November 18, 2011

Also, the Roses have connections to the Sizemore family. The Sizemore’s have proven Native connections, particularly Ned Sizemore. The Dawes list isn’t the greatest place to find information. It was a program that excluded more people than it included. However, the Dawes list has great records on the Sizemore’s that were accepted.

Gail (Rose) Berish Gail (Rose) Berish

posted on July 9, 2012

Hi Deborah,

I know of this Rose family you are researching. The dates of John & his wife, as well as their purported places of birth and their dates and place of death are all the same as what many genealogists have. However, John’s wife has always been known as Rebekah (Bowen) Rose. I’ve never heard of her called Betsy. I have seen their gravesite and many original documents showing John’s wife’s first name is Rebekah. Maybe “Betsy” is a nickname I’ve not come across. That will be a great clue to check out!

Now, concerning your question about whether John & Rebekah (Bowen) Rose were Choctaw, I can with all certainty say, no, they weren’t. DNA has proven this John Rose was a descendant of the Rose family that settled Suffolk County, Long Island, New York with ancestry markers from England all the way back to the Basques of Spain who came from the Jutes of NorthEastern Italy. Rebekah Bowen’s parents were Welch.

When John & Rebekah settled in what’s now Wolfe County, KY, many of their descendents married American Indians, specifically Cherokee from the North Carolina Cherokee Indian Nation. Their son, Robert Rose had a son, Ezekiel Rose. Ezekiel married Syntha Jett who was 1/2 Cherokee. Her mother was Elizabeth Cloud, full-blood Cherokee from the North Carolina Cherokee Indian nation. It has been written about Syntha’s brother, Hercanus Jett, that he liked to teach the children he knew how to count to “10” in Cherokee. This is just one example.

I am a 4th great-granddaughter of John & Rebekah (Bowen) Rose. I’ve been researching this Rose family since 1998 and have been fortunate to have had GREAT assistance of many well respected researchers of this Rose family.

As in every family genealogical chart, there will be errors. There have been many errors due to guesses made concerning who is John Rose born in 1761 and married Rebekah (Bowen) Rose.

Please understand that no one knows for sure who this John Rose’s parents are. DNA has been done on a Rose male from each of John & Rebekah’s sons according to known ancestry charts. We have confirmed that the recorded children from John and Rebekah (Bowen) Rose are true. The chart from their children down might have a couple of errors, but for the most part are quite dependable.

However, DNA has proven that John Rose was NOT the son of Ezekiel Rose and Mary Higgins, nor was he a son of Ezekiel Rose and Mary Fidler. He WAS closely related to them, maybe a nephew. We are missing that ONE piece of the line that says who exactly John’s parents were.

Now, one very strange thing was found when our Rose male cousins had their DNA tested. That is, ONE line of Roses who came from Nathaniel & Esther (Dorton) Rose and who lived in the same area of KY during the same time and area as John & Rebekah (Bowen) Rose was NOT RELATED TO ANY ROSE LINE KNOWN! In fact, their DNA proved they were of American Indian descent! We were told that DNA could not identify from which American Indian tribe a person decendended. It could only identify American Indian ancestry.

I’d love to share more information with you. Please contact me at fberisky@aol.com if you’d like more info.

Sincerely,
Gail (Rose) Berish

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on July 9, 2012

natives of that time period took surnames from favorite people, places, things. you might look at the tribes that were in kentucky around that time period. so it is possible that this nathaniel rose was not a rose, but was a native who liked people with the surname of rose.

http://500nations.com/Kentucky_Tribes.asp
http://www.native-languages.org/kentucky.htm
with a map
http://www.aaanativearts.com/tribes-by-states/kentucky_tribes.htm

you should contact the kentucky historical society and the kentucky state archives and see if they have any information.

Sharon Rose Sharon Rose

posted on December 24, 2013

I recently started tracing my family tree and I’m new to doing this type of research. I have a John David Rose married to Rebekah Bowen but my information is his parents were Robert Rose and Johanna Crawford. I understand Rose is very common name but if anyone could give me some direction I’d very much appreciate it.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on December 24, 2013

i just re-read this thread.
i’m connected to the sizemore family and have just discovered that i have some native DNA also.

the sizemore family.
George Edward SIZEMORE
Birth 1750 in Shenendoah Valley Virginia, Lunenburg, Virginia, USA
Death 13 JUL 1822 in Ashe, North Carolina, United States
and this is the native:
Anna Elizabeth Arura Hart
Birth 3 February 1751 in Logan, Virginia, United States
Death 14 July 1814 in Laurel Springs, Alleghany, North Carolina, United States

in my DNA match’s family tree, she says that this person was cherokee and several cherokee were in VA.
they moved to NC then on to VA/sulphur springs, then on to WV because they didn’t want to go on the trail of tears.

aruna’s father:
James Hart
Birth 1725 in North Carolina, United States
Death 1815 in Virginia, United States
aruna’s mother:
Elizabeth Morgan
Birth 1720 in Logan, Virginia, United States
Death 1750 in Edgecombe, Edgecombe, North Carolina, United States

aruna’s grandfather:
Chief Bear “William Jackson” Hart
Birth 1660 in Cherokee, Alabama, United States
Death in Cherokee, Alabama, United States

it is thought that he was not native, but was caucasian. his wife was probably full-blood native but little is known about her. since she was in AL, she could be MOWA, mississippi choctaw, or another tribe.

the mullins family has several members of the family tested for DNA.
M114954 suzanne shatto
M664932 Dorothy Pierce
you have to create a username and then you can look at our kits.
i know that the mullins family has several rose surnames in their family tree.

i have little information about this family, only that we match in a particular branch of their family tree. my great grandfather, john arnold walker, was illegitimate and nothing is known about his father. little is known about his mother.

if you have tested DNA, you should upload your results to gedmatch because they accept FTDNA, ancestry DNA and 23andme DNA and give you the matches.
angelee’s kit is F60693 and you should contact her if you are a match.
it takes anywhere from 4-6 weeks to get matches from the one-to-many program but the one-to-one program works soon after uploading. it will show you whether there is a match, chromosome by chromosome, and whether there are any other matches that match that chromosome.

this might help you with your rose research as well.

suzanne hamlet shatto