Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma

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Message for Suzanne Shatto

Brenda Taft Edwards Brenda Taft Edwards

posted on October 5, 2012

In 2011 I posted a message about the Matthews/Padick/Smith family and gave detailed information. You responded that my dates were wrong and that Nancy Jane Padick had died in 1898. However, when I reviewed my posted I had stated Nancy Jane Padick died in 1898 and she was the first wife of Andrew J. Matthews. After her death, he married Silway Gibson who died about April 11, 1900. You also stated you did not want to embarrass me, but that my dates were wrong. I did fail to tell you that the information I posted was found in records I obtained furnished to me by the Choctaw Nation. My grandmother did not die in the early 1900s as you stated, rather she was born in 1904 to Sarah E. Matthews Smith and Reece/Rice Smith. She died in August, 1967. If my dates are wrong, then the records I obtained from the Choctaw Nation and her death certificate are incorrect. I have the hearing documents where Andrew Matthews was admitted to the tribe via marriage to Nancy Jane Padick. I am very confused now. My grandmother’s enrollment under the Dawes was NB267 or NB269 (going by memory here). The name on her birth record is recorded different in two places. One gives her the name of “Clorie” and then another page gives her the name of “Clora.” Sarah E. Matthews married Reece/Rice/R.C. Smith and they had two children, Clorie/Clora and Elmer Smith. I have no idea where my great-grandfather went, but I know my grandmother and Elmer went to an orphanage in Stillwater, Payne, OK after the death of Sarah. The 1910 Census Report shows Reece/Sarah/Clora/Elmer living in Stillwater, Payne, OK. Could you please clarify how you determined the dates were wrong? Do you know where Nancy Jane Padick is buried? I can find very little information on the family. I understand that Smith is an extremely common name. I am not knew to genealogy and have located more than 7,300 confirmed paternal ancestors, however when it comes to my grandmother, I am stuck in 1910.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on October 5, 2012

i do not remember your post and it is not likely that i would say some of what you are saying. it is not up to me to determine the truth of any records. however, i could have posted that there was conflicting information or that you might need more information.

so, no, i cannot determine that dates are wrong. i only look up available records on the internet. i don’t control any records.

perhaps you could find the thread where you posted previously and i would be glad to look at it. your post is very surprising to me. i answer many posts, not just on this messageboard but through email, through other avenues.

as your names are very common, i could have been looking at someone else’s record. this usually happens when there is not enough information in the post in order to find a particular person, especially if there is a common name.

i am not sure where your confusion lies, in this, or what you want.

no, i do not know where nancy padick or nancy matthews is buried. i sometimes look up names on findagrave.com or interment.net. but this the extent of any research i do about cemetery records.

please let me know what you are trying to find and how i can help. i am not sure what information you lack.

suzanne hamlet shatto

Brenda Taft Edwards Brenda Taft Edwards

posted on October 13, 2012

Thank you for your response. My confusion lies in that in the original posting I gave accurate, detailed information. You did confirm that Nancy Jane Paddick died in 1898, but if memory serves me well you did not state how you confirmed her date of death. Do you recall how you confirmed it?

Reece/Rice C. Smith married Sarah E. Matthews (date unknown). They had two children, Clora Smith and Elmer Smith. I obtained Clora’s birth records from the Choctaw nation which show a date of birth as 11.09.1904. However, my grandmother’s death certificate and headstone show 11.09.03. Sarah Matthews Smith died and Reece Smith took Clora and Elmer to an orphanage and eventually they were separated. Clora never saw her brother again.

A week ago, one of Elmer Smith’s granddaughters was searching for his sister, Clora, and found a posting on the message board. The family contacted me and told me how Elmer had searched for Clora for 20 years and after never finding her, had her declared dead. This would explain your statement that my grandmother had died before the year of her actual death.

I do not know how to direct you back to the original post from you, other than to ask you to copy and paste the link below:

http://www.choctawnation.com/forum/forums/2/topics/524

If you have any information or can help me find anything about Sarah E. Matthews (parents: Andrew J. Matthews and Nancy Jane Paddick) or any other family member, please let me know.

By the way, my grand-uncle’s granddaughter has accurate information and after Elmer’s long search for his sister, the families have finally found each other. Unfortunately, Elmer and Clora are not living to see the event, but they were able to give me pictures of my grandmother as a child as well as a family portrait. If I had never posted here, we would never been united.

Thank you.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on October 13, 2012

i did not say anything about nancy jane paddick(sp?) other than the conflicting information in your own post. and i may have understood your post wrong. this was why i suggested you might review your information.

i did not confirm nancy jane smith nee paddick death.

have you looked at online cemeteries? findagrave.com and interment.net might have a record. in any case, you should look particularly for cemeteries in atoka county. rootsweb.com has county websites where such information might be posted.
http://resources.rootsweb.ancestry.com/USA/OK/Atoka/

http://www.okgenweb.org/~okatoka/
rootsweb also has a cemetery subject for the area, an archives for the county.

oklahoma became a state in 1907 and before that was known as indian territory. many administrative tasks were performed at the forts nearby.

as far as death information, this was very early for records. you should check the oklahoma state archives, the oklahoma historical society for death information, the county clerk where they lived. there were also historical newspapers and you should ask the same sources about that. see your local public library/interlibrary loan program for historical newspapers at that time. check with the chickasaw tribe also about historical newspapers.

you may want to get a copy of this marriage certificate:

FIVE FEDERAL COURTHOUSES IN CHOCTAW NATION AT – ATOKA, ATOKA CO. OK, get copy of marriage from LDS Library BR – DURANT, BRYAN CO. OK. get copy of marriage from Durant Lf – POTEAU, LEFLORE CO. OK get copy of marriage from Poteau Mc – McALESTER, PITSBURY CO. OK get copy of marriage from Indian Archives OKC WIL – WILBURTON, LATIMER CO. OK you may be able to get copy from Muskogee Ok CODES USED un – NOT USED nr – NO RETURN er – ERROR col – COLORED

GROOM AGE BRIDE AGE DATE RESIDENCE BOOK©PAGE
SMITH, R C 27 MATHEWS, SARAH 15 26 FEB 1904 COALGATE AT2©421

http://www.okgenweb.org/~okgarvin/kinard/chocmarriageindex.htm

see the oklahoma historical society, the atoka county clerk, the state archives and/or the local family history center of the church of latter day saints for the marriage record.

as far as conflicting dates regarding clora’s birth, this is rather the norm. a death certificate is secondary information regarding birth because the death certificate was not created at the time of the birth. when social security came into effect 1/1/1937, people had to submit delayed birth certificates or birth certificates, in order to show proof of age. if someone put down an earlier year and they had affidavits from others, a different birth year might be recorded in records. it is rare when all information matches perfectly.

what does it say in the dawes enrollment packet? there would be an enrollment application (based on heritage), census card, supporting documents, maybe testimony.

i could find no other record other than the newborn record:
Dawes Card Information

tribe last first middle age sex blood card roll misc type
Choctaw Smith R C 0 M NB269 P
Choctaw Smith Sarah E 0 F NB269 P
Choctaw Smith Clorie 1 F 1/64 NB269 NB267 WESLEY NB

fold3.com indicates that this application is in with the family group:
Lasawee Littlehead Dawes Packet

i do not know. i am just telling you what i found. this bit of information is on the accessgenealogy dawes website.
but fold3 is a subscription website and one month’s subscription is less than the price of one dawes packet from the oklahoma historical society or NARA.

Dawes Card Information

tribe last first middle age sex blood card roll misc type
Choctaw Gibson 0 M 3878 P
Choctaw Gibson Eliza 0 F 3878 P
Choctaw Lawrence Dave 0 M 3878 P
Choctaw Mathews Elizabeth 0 F 3878 P
Choctaw Mathews James 0 M 3878 P
Choctaw Mathews Nancy 0 F 3878 P
Choctaw Mathews Annie 3 F 1/2 3878 NR ATOKA BB
Choctaw Mathews Eliza 9 F 1/32 3878 NR ATOKA BB
Choctaw Mathews Sarah E 11 F 1/32 3878 NR ATOKA BB
Choctaw Mathews Silway 27 F FULL 3878 NR ATOKA BB
Choctaw Mathews Andrew J 39 M IW 3878 NR ATOKA BB
IW=intermarried white
BB=by blood
P=parent

so now you have two dawes packets that contain information.

the family group is the card#.
when i go to the accessgenealogy website, i put in a partial name (so that misspellings can also be seen) and search. then i try to find the particular family group by clicking on the # in the card column.

it appears that sarah may have been native but reese/rice smith was not, and this explains why i don’t see a separate record for him.

there may be some death information in those packets. the indian agent might have written something. in any case, there is usually some good heritage information in the testimony or documents associated with dawes packets.

i am very glad that you found cousins with this search. i think this messageboard is very useful for that purpose alone.

gl.

suzanne hamlet shatto

Brenda Edwards Brenda Edwards

posted on September 4

I have all the information you provided in your post. I even obtained copies of the records from the Choctaw Nation … about 50+ pages. However, since my grandmother’s death certificate does not list her parents, I am being denied acceptance. I am at a loss at what to get to prove they are one and the same person.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on September 4

did you ask the tribe?
did you get a copy of your grandmother’s delayed birth certificate or birth certificate from vital records?

did you get a copy of her marriage license? the tribe would probably know who her spouse was.

sometimes death certificates list spouses and sometimes not. it depends what the informant knew or could recall at the time of her death. when my husband passed away, for instance, they asked me who his previous wife was, who his parents were and i was somewhat shocked, had paperwork at home, but they expected me to answer right then. and although i told the funeral director (who seemed to control the death certificate) that he was choctaw, that i wanted the obituary to so state, this didn’t get on the death certificate nor in the obituary. a spouse’s death, and maybe a parent’s death, might be more like 52-card pickup.

i would think the tribe would know when a member passed away. but then i don’t know. i don’t live near the tribe and have no relationship with the tribe. maybe you need to clarify what the tribe wants. they might need another document. i don’t know. i would suggest that you try to get a birth certificate or delayed birth certificate for your grandmother from state vital records. her social security application also would have listed her parents’ names – you can get this with a form SS-5. however, the social security application is not a primary record. but such application would certainly clear up whether your relative is the same person as in the dawes roll.

suzanne hamlet shatto