Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma

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Census questions

muzicfreek muzicfreek

posted on August 25, 2010 and updated on August 25, 2010

Hi. I have been trying to track my maternal line for about a year now. I got stuck on my gg grandmother…. I finally found her…. She lived in Georgia all but 1885 where she is NOT listed in Ga, but in Oklahoma in Skullyville.. and Listed as Indian on the census..I was wondering..How can I find out who her parents were and if she was indeed Choctaw. Were there other tribes living in Choctaw territory?…I was trying to figure out how she came to be in Georgia and why she only went to Oklahoma for a brief time.. at the age of 18..living with 2 younger children and a man the age of 40 who is white…How can I find if this is her husband, or her father.. or just a man who adopted her …etc etc…

Any Ideas of a direction to go would be SO helpful. Thank you!!

1885 Choctaw Nation census.. in Skullyville Oklahoma

lists …

Squire Allen 40 … wh male Farmer married into Choctaw Nation
Louisa Allen 18 Indian
Wm B Allen 4 Indian
John Allen 2 Indian

muzicfreek muzicfreek

posted on August 25, 2010 and updated on August 25, 2010

…..

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on August 25, 2010

do you have her on the 1880 census?

re tribes. there were many tribes in oklahoma at the time. the dawes roll has the five major tribes. but there are state recognized and federal recognized tribes. you might not find out your ancestor’s native heritage if they didn’t apply for enrollment.

unfortunately, allen is a very common surname and louisa is a common name. are you positive this is your louisa allen?

did she marry? who are her children? where did she live? when did she pass away/ these are all questions that are not answered in your post.

this is listed as a choctaw marriage:
ALLEN, SQUIRE 50 RILEY, IDA MRS 23 28 JUL 1895 BOKOSHE MC6İ308

http://www.okgenweb.org/~okgarvin/kinard/chockamarr.htm

i would say that you have to go back to the beginning and get documentation on her children, such as dates and locations, children and spouse. then you can start on louisa. if you get stuck and they passed away after 1/1/1937, you can ask for a copy of their social security application. parents would be listed on that. marriage license, obituary, childrens’ birth certificates might have her maiden name and more detail.

genealogists use names, dates, locations, children and spouses to match records. if you have a common surname, you need to give more information rather than less. if you post about women, it is helpful to include the maiden name and the married name and designate which one is the maiden name.

first of all, heritage and tribal enrollment are two different things. many times natives didn’t apply for enrollment because 1) they didn’t qualify, 2) they were philosophically opposed to enrollment, 3) they didn’t have documentation, or 4) they were mississippi choctaw and their ancestor had accepted land or benefits in lieu of tribal enrollment.

the dawes roll was taken 1896-1906, so you should trace your ancestors down to that time period. mostly, they had to be living in oklahoma by that time and agree to live there permanently.

if the name is common, you may find too many possible records.

the tribe has an excellent information to help you. it is found under genealogy advocacy.
http://choctawnation.com/services/departments/community-services/

mississippi choctaw and choctaw tribe explained here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw_Trail_of_Tears

i have collected many resources over the years. if you want to write to me, shamlet76@gmail.com and request the choctaw resource list, i will be glad to send it to you.

i am just a volunteer that wants to empower people to learn how to do genealogy.

suzanne hamlet shatto

muzicfreek muzicfreek

posted on August 26, 2010

Wow.. That is a lot of helpful info!!!

Wow.. That is a lot of helpful info!!!Going by my family’s attitude toward our ancestral history, I believe she would not have tried to enroll…It was this great secret…so Im sure she didn’t enroll. That part doesn’t bother me..because I don’t care anything about getting land,money, or scholarships due to any findings. I just feel that spoken history is a huge deal.. to be able to speak a name and say I am piece of her.. no matter who she was is a great deal to me. I feel to be able to give her her rightful ,honorable place in the history of her children would be a great honor. She derserves to not be erased from the world that way.

Wow.. That is a lot of helpful info!!!Going by my family’s attitude toward our ancestral history, I believe she would not have tried to enroll…It was this great secret…so Im sure she didn’t enroll. That part doesn’t bother me..because I don’t care anything about getting land,money, or scholarships due to any findings. I just feel that spoken history is a huge deal.. to be able to speak a name and say I am piece of her.. no matter who she was is a great deal to me. I feel to be able to give her her rightful ,honorable place in the history of her children would be a great honor. She derserves to not be erased from the world that way.I don’t think she was married to Squire.. I feel this is her.There are too many names repeated throughout both lines I have traced on her..I think Squire may have been an uncle by marriage…but with all this great info you just gave me, HOPEFULLY I will be able to try to figure this out.

Wow.. That is a lot of helpful info!!!Going by my family’s attitude toward our ancestral history, I believe she would not have tried to enroll…It was this great secret…so Im sure she didn’t enroll. That part doesn’t bother me..because I don’t care anything about getting land,money, or scholarships due to any findings. I just feel that spoken history is a huge deal.. to be able to speak a name and say I am piece of her.. no matter who she was is a great deal to me. I feel to be able to give her her rightful ,honorable place in the history of her children would be a great honor. She derserves to not be erased from the world that way.I don’t think she was married to Squire.. I feel this is her.There are too many names repeated throughout both lines I have traced on her..I think Squire may have been an uncle by marriage…but with all this great info you just gave me, HOPEFULLY I will be able to try to figure this out.Her married name is Ash.. Allen is either a maiden name or an assimilated name, I believe… I know for sure she was native..we have stories and these stories are in lockdown in my family because they were raised in a time that if you werent white, you’re nothing.. so it’s like this horrible dark secret.. I am going to give my ancestors back their pride .. and my children will speak their names to their children… THAT is why I am here.She will get her honor.=)

Wow.. That is a lot of helpful info!!!Going by my family’s attitude toward our ancestral history, I believe she would not have tried to enroll…It was this great secret…so Im sure she didn’t enroll. That part doesn’t bother me..because I don’t care anything about getting land,money, or scholarships due to any findings. I just feel that spoken history is a huge deal.. to be able to speak a name and say I am piece of her.. no matter who she was is a great deal to me. I feel to be able to give her her rightful ,honorable place in the history of her children would be a great honor. She derserves to not be erased from the world that way.I don’t think she was married to Squire.. I feel this is her.There are too many names repeated throughout both lines I have traced on her..I think Squire may have been an uncle by marriage…but with all this great info you just gave me, HOPEFULLY I will be able to try to figure this out.Her married name is Ash.. Allen is either a maiden name or an assimilated name, I believe… I know for sure she was native..we have stories and these stories are in lockdown in my family because they were raised in a time that if you werent white, you’re nothing.. so it’s like this horrible dark secret.. I am going to give my ancestors back their pride .. and my children will speak their names to their children… THAT is why I am here.She will get her honor.=)Thank you so much for your help.. I will definitely be contacting you.. =D

Wow.. That is a lot of helpful info!!!Going by my family’s attitude toward our ancestral history, I believe she would not have tried to enroll…It was this great secret…so Im sure she didn’t enroll. That part doesn’t bother me..because I don’t care anything about getting land,money, or scholarships due to any findings. I just feel that spoken history is a huge deal.. to be able to speak a name and say I am piece of her.. no matter who she was is a great deal to me. I feel to be able to give her her rightful ,honorable place in the history of her children would be a great honor. She derserves to not be erased from the world that way.I don’t think she was married to Squire.. I feel this is her.There are too many names repeated throughout both lines I have traced on her..I think Squire may have been an uncle by marriage…but with all this great info you just gave me, HOPEFULLY I will be able to try to figure this out.Her married name is Ash.. Allen is either a maiden name or an assimilated name, I believe… I know for sure she was native..we have stories and these stories are in lockdown in my family because they were raised in a time that if you werent white, you’re nothing.. so it’s like this horrible dark secret.. I am going to give my ancestors back their pride .. and my children will speak their names to their children… THAT is why I am here.She will get her honor.=)Thank you so much for your help.. I will definitely be contacting you.. =D(and I believe she was a mississippi choctaw.. because there are family who were from alabama .. I cant seem to get past the area Im stuck in right now.. I have honestly no idea where she was born.. nothing other than censuses from ga and Oklahoma.)

Wow.. That is a lot of helpful info!!!Going by my family’s attitude toward our ancestral history, I believe she would not have tried to enroll…It was this great secret…so Im sure she didn’t enroll. That part doesn’t bother me..because I don’t care anything about getting land,money, or scholarships due to any findings. I just feel that spoken history is a huge deal.. to be able to speak a name and say I am piece of her.. no matter who she was is a great deal to me. I feel to be able to give her her rightful ,honorable place in the history of her children would be a great honor. She derserves to not be erased from the world that way.I don’t think she was married to Squire.. I feel this is her.There are too many names repeated throughout both lines I have traced on her..I think Squire may have been an uncle by marriage…but with all this great info you just gave me, HOPEFULLY I will be able to try to figure this out.Her married name is Ash.. Allen is either a maiden name or an assimilated name, I believe… I know for sure she was native..we have stories and these stories are in lockdown in my family because they were raised in a time that if you werent white, you’re nothing.. so it’s like this horrible dark secret.. I am going to give my ancestors back their pride .. and my children will speak their names to their children… THAT is why I am here.She will get her honor.=)Thank you so much for your help.. I will definitely be contacting you.. =D(and I believe she was a mississippi choctaw.. because there are family who were from alabama .. I cant seem to get past the area Im stuck in right now.. I have honestly no idea where she was born.. nothing other than censuses from ga and Oklahoma.)Thanks again. Chas

muzicfreek muzicfreek

posted on August 26, 2010

Hahahaha, I have absolutely no idea why my post looks like that movie “Groundhog Day”..

I only typed that one paragraph and it threw it out into the matrix and spun it back in like kung fu magic.

sorry about that.. Just read the bottom paragraph.. LOL..

hugs Chas

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on August 26, 2010

you can try mississippi choctaw and MOWA. there were some cherokee in the north of alabama or mississippi too, i think.

what census records do you have? start there and go backward. try the 1930 census, the 1920 census, the 1910 census. who is in her family? where does it say she was born. when did she have children and who did she marry. do you have her birth certificate, her death certificate, her social security application, her marriage license? do you know when and where her children were born, who her spouse was.

it is unlikely that one day she wakes up in oklahoma and the next day she’s back in georgia.

southeastern native tribes were the MOWA, seminole, choctaw, cherokee, chickasaw, mississippi choctaw, jena choctaw, melungeon. and this is not intended to be an inclusive list. and some native bands got state recognition, some got federal recognition and some didn’t apply for recognition. it is difficult to find out tribes if their family didn’t apply, but there were termination land grants, trading books, local history books. some natives married caucasians or other races and had records in the federal, state and county records. natives living on a reservation were not taxed and this is why they didn’t appear on census records in the 1800’s. as people began leaving the reservation, in official migrations or unofficial migrations, they started appearing on records.

muzicfreek muzicfreek

posted on August 28, 2010 and updated on August 28, 2010

I thought it was strange too.. but her personal info matches in both censuses…birth years… along with family names…

I technically only really have her on census.. no other info. the one from oklahoma and one after (where she is living with my gggreat grandfather .. who was white and their children.. (my ggreat grandmother)) that says she was born in ga.. but I have no documentation proving her birth.

I will start with great grandmother and work my way back to her through birth records.. Can you view them in some central location like a county building without having to spend money??

muzicfreek muzicfreek

posted on August 28, 2010 and updated on August 28, 2010

.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on August 28, 2010

i don’t know what you are asking about a central location.
many libraries have subscriptions to heritage quest and ancestry.com databases. you should call your local public library about that. often, if you library has a subscription to heritage quest, you can view the census records at home.

some birth indexes are available online but not many. the social security death index 1964-present is on rootsweb.com. anyone who passed away after 1/1/1937 has a social security application file and this can point you to location and dates. also, parents names are listed. the index doesn’t contain all that information but the social security application does. if she filed for social security, she would have had to prove age by submitting a delayed birth certificate. so if you ask a county for a birth certificate, let them know that it might have been a delayed birth certificate.

often worldconnect records are helpful. see rootsweb.com for that. and messageboards for surname, location, tribe are also helpful. rootsweb.com and genealogy.com have those. there are other messageboards, but those are two main ones. rootsweb sends out email when someone posts. i choose the daily digest, so i don’t get individual emails.

i’ve done a lot with interlibrary loan. see your local library for that. you can request articles or view newspapers to look for your family. i usually request newspapers that would be local to them, with the dates that might be helpful, like birth of children or marriage or death.

most of these ideas are low cost or no cost.

this is an excellent source of records for natives
http://www.accessgenealogy.com

you might write to me and ask for a list of native resources.

gl.

Lixliz Lixliz

posted on January 16, 2011

Hello,

My family is from the same Allen family in Skullville. W.B Allen was my ancestor. My Great Grandfather was Jess Allen, who married a Sarah C. Evans and had my Grandmother Annie Mae Allen and Two boys. Jess Allen is shown on some Creek Indian roll as the son of Lizzie Allen, Full Blood Creek?? In Creek Oklahoma. I think Lizzie was born somewhere around 1849. Her Son Jess was married to ???? Then my GGrandfather Jess Jr. Married SC. Evans. Annie Mae Allen was born in Lamar, Texas in 1880, died in Oklahoma in 1966. She married John H. Stephens and had Dovie Ozell, Ruby Audry, John Harvey, Ruth, Mamie Stephens. Not sure about anyone earlier than Lizzie.

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on January 16, 2011

you should post this on a new thread so that others can reply to it knowing this family you are talking about.
do you have dates and locations?
children and spouse.

try one generation at a time, so that it is easier to find someone.

i will reply as soon as it is a new thread so that it can help others.

it is helpful to have birth, death, locations, children and spouse.

if you call your local public library, they probably have heritage quest census database that you can log in from home. go to the library website and find out. they may also have a subscription to ancestry, but you usually have to go to the library to use it.

the dawes roll is here, if you want to search for something.

gl.
suzanne hamlet shatto

JohnCAminAllen JohnCAminAllen

posted on May 19

I am also John Allen under Squire and Louise Allen. I still live in Lamar County Texas. I would love to connect to interested parties and share tree’s or something. jcaa@hotmail.de

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on May 20

Native American Data for Squire Allen

Name: Allen, Squire
Tribe: Choctaw
Record Type: enrollment
Sex: M
Enrollment Type: P (Parent)
Card No.: 2642

Credit belongs to the staff of SW National Archives, Fort Worth, Texas, who compiled the names from the Dawes Enrollment Cards for its National Archives
Others with this Family:
Surname First Name Type Sex Age Blood %
Allen Lou P (Parent) F
Allen Squire P (Parent) M
Keffer Levi P (Parent) M
Keffer Lizzie P (Parent) F
Allen Lue Ella BB (By Blood) F 22 IW
Allen William BB (By Blood) M 19 1/16
Allen John K BB (By Blood) M 18 1/16

iw=intermarried white, a general nontribal description.
this family would have been living in indian territory/oklahoma around 1900 and not in georgia.
http://userdb.rootsweb.ancestry.com/nativeamerican/
this is the index of names of applicants to the five major tribes.
the card# is the family group.

http://www.ancestrypaths.com/five-civilized-tribes/
use the card# to find the correct microfilm. the card#s are arranged in order.
Reel 0013 Choctaw by Blood 2503-2656

squire allen’s wife was lue ella.
her affidavit was made when she was 22 years old.
lue ella was born in sebastian county, AR.
her father’s name was levi keifer.
her mother’s name was lizzie.
she was white.
her husband’s name was john k. allen.
they were married october 7, 1900.
affidavit made june 13, 1902.

the brothers, john k. allen and william allen, were choctaw natives.
they lived in skullyville county, indian territory, in 1896.
william allen married a female named bertha.

if these details do not fit your relative, then maybe the names were somewhat common.

finding a name in an index means that there are underlying records. those records might not pertain to every person by that name but only to a specific person named in the application and documents.

the tribe would have the names of their children. the names of their children could also be ascertained by census records, cemetery records and obituaries.

any application for membership in the tribe based on the name of an original enrollee of the tribe would require documents that demonstrate that you are directly related to the named person who is an original enrollee of the tribe.

suzanne hamlet shatto

suzanne hamlet shatto suzanne hamlet shatto

posted on May 20

johnCAminAllen, is this your relative? this is posted on more than one family tree on ancestry.com. however, some details vary.

Squire Q. Allen
Birth 12 feb 1810 in Pennsylvania, United States
Death 13 Oct 1878 in Paris, Lamar, Texas, United States

Louise Jane McKay
Birth 1823 in Franklin County, Mississippi, USA
Death abt 1904 in Paris, Lamar, Texas, United States

Timeline
3 Sources
Birth
1810
12 Feb
Pennsylvania, United States
1 Source
Marriage to Louise Jane McKay
1840
31 Dec
Age: 30
Madison, Madison, Mississippi, United States
1 Source
Residence
1850
Age: 40
Scott, Mississippi
1 Source
Residence
1860
Age: 50
Lawrence, Mississippi, United States
1 Source
Death
1878
13 Oct
Age: 68
Paris, Lamar, Texas, United States
1 Source
Burial
Rugby, Red River County, Texas, USA

Samuel Price McCoy McKAY
Birth 1782 in , , South Carolina, USA
Death 6 Jun 1846 in Madison County, Mississippi, USA

Elizabeth Bell JASPER
Birth 1785 in South Carolina, USA
Death 1818 in Amite County, Mississippi, USA

i do not know if these people were native.

i see that samuel price mckay is a somewhat common name in the area. i also see that others say that he was married to a lady with a first name of martha and that other samuel price mckays were born in other locations.

you would have to contact people who post your family names and share information and sources.

it is important that you collect documents so that you can be sure that the documents reference your relative and not someone with the same name who lives nearby. i start with the death and work backwards in time.

i see that squire is a somewhat common nickname that sometimes is referenced in documents instead of their given first name.

suzanne hamlet shatto

JohnCAminAllen JohnCAminAllen

posted on June 6

suzanne hamlet shatto, Thank you very much! I have been busy and just saw that you replied. I have doubts in the tree. I have found too much info that makes me sceptical. I research on… Thank You.